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Direct Examination by LDC J. Harrington

Unofficial/Unauthenticated Transcript of the Khalid Shaikh Mohammed et al (2) Hearing Dated 2/24/2016 from 9:21 AM to 10:54 AM

DIRECT EXAMINATION (pp. 11107-11152)

Questions by the Chief Prosecutor [BG MARTINS]:

Q. Mr. Binalshibh, do you affirm that the evidence you shall give in the case now in hearing shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

A. [In English] Yes, I affirm.

LDC [MR. HARRINGTON]: Judge, just so you're aware, I'm going to do my questioning in English and there may come a time when it doesn't work but we'll try to do it that way.

MJ [COL POHL]: English to English?


MJ [COL POHL]: Go ahead.

Questions by the Learned Defense Counsel [MR. HARRINGTON]:

Q. Mr. Binalshibh, how old are you?

[Interpretation resumed.]

A. In the name of Allah, the most compassionate, the most merciful, and prayer and peace of Allah be on the Prophet of Muhammad, his family, his companions and followers. [In English] I'm 43 years old.

Q. And are you a detainee here at Camp VII at Guantanamo Naval Station?

A. Yes.

Q. And are you accused of committing various offenses against the United States on September 11 of 2001?

A. Yes.

Q. And can you tell us how long you have been in United States custody?

A. Now about 15 years.

Q. You were taken into custody on September 11 of 2002; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And you were at some point in time brought to Guantanamo and have remained at Guantanamo since that time; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And that was September 6, 2006, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And have you been housed in Camp VII since then?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, from September 11, 2002 to September 6, 2006, were you held in U.S. custody at other places?

A. Yes.

Q. And at the time that you were in these other places, were you subjected to harsh conditions?

A. Yes.

Q. And were you subjected to physical abuse?

A. Yes.

Q. Psychological abuse?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you subjected to torture through the use of noises?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you subjected to torture through the use of vibrations?

A. Yes.

Q. And you are aware, are you not, that the United States Senate Select Committee on Intelligence issued a report that was made public in December of 2014, are you not?

A. Yes.

Q. And have you read that report?

A. Most of them.

Q. Okay. Have you read the part of the report that talks about you?

A. Yes.

LDC [MR. HARRINGTON]: Judge, could I have this marked as an appellate exhibit and show it to the witness?

MJ [COL POHL]: I think we already have the report itself. Isn't the report itself already a part of the exhibit or do you just have a portion of it?

LDC [MR. HARRINGTON]: I just have the portion that relates to him, Judge.

MJ [COL POHL]: Yes. Even though it's somewhere else, we'll repeat it. It will be the next in the 152 series. For the record, that will be 152QQ (RBS).

LDC [MR. HARRINGTON]: May I approach, Judge?

MJ [COL POHL]: Sure.

Questions by the Learned Defense Counsel [MR. HARRINGTON]:

Mr. Binalshibh, I have just handed you what's been marked as Appellate Exhibit 152QQ or Quebec Quebec. Do you have that in front of you?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. And you have seen that document before, have you not?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And the pages that I have given to you are the pages that talk about you; is that correct?

A. It started from 75, the page 75, yes.

Q. And in that document there are things that are described that were done to you; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And is it accurate that those things were done to you?

A. Yes.

Q. And does that cover all of the things that were done to you?

A. No.

Q. The document refers to the use of noises against you, does it not?

A. Does say something about it.

Q. And it also refers to the use of some vibrations against you, does it not?

A. No.

MJ [COL POHL]: I'm sorry, was that "na'am" meaning "yes"?

ACC [MR. BINALSHIBH]: No, I said "no" for the second part.

Questions by the Learned Defense Counsel [MR. HARRINGTON]:

Q. Does not refer to vibrations?

A. No vibrations referred to.

Q. But they were used, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And other noises besides what is described there, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And, these things were -- happened to you for a long period of time; is that right?

A. Yes, since then.

Q. Since you were taken into custody?

A. Yes till now.

Q. Now, during that period of time when you were other places other than Guantanamo, did those noises affect you and your ability to sleep?

A. Yes.

Q. And did they have other effects on you?

A. Yes.

Q. What effects?

A. Just the -- make all my life terrible, make it upside down. You cannot concentrate, you cannot read, you cannot sleep, you cannot pray, you cannot do any of this because of living with this condition day and night, 24 hours a day.

Q. Now, there came a time in 2006 when you were brought to Guantanamo, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And were you -- have you been kept at Camp VII since you've been here?

A. Yes.

Q. And when you first got to Camp VII, were you subjected to any kind of noises?

A. Yes.

Q. What kind of noises then?

A. They are different noises because they are changed from time to time. First noises that I have -- or I have been subjected to, 2007 -- 2006, three weeks maybe later, after I arrived, was -- first thing was banging on my walls, on my cell walls and outside my Charlie rec. Charlie rec is the backyard of my cell, small rec, individual rec, every brothers has their own recs behind -- backyard of the cell.

Q. Did you move a little closer to the microphone?

A. Yes.

Q. And when you first got here, the first period of time that you were here, what kind of noises were you actually hearing?

A. That was a banging -- banging on my cell, and on the wall of my cell. And the other noises was outside my cell in my Charlie rec, what they call the Charlie rec, the backyard is a separate backyard for recreations that we have used that time. And that was the first things that they started with.

Q. And did there come a point in time where those --that type of noise changed?

A. Yes, it is -- they change always, all the time, frequently, from time to time.

Q. Let me ask you this, have the noises continued up until the present day?

A. Yes.

Q. Could you describe last night for you?

A. Last night was like every other night for me. I couldn't sleep. I left the courtroom and I went back to my cell for -- with homework to do for this court, especially for the testimony. But when I went there, I started working on my laptop to prepare myself. And then they start it from since -- making noises from the fence of my Charlie like always, banging the fence. Especially this started when they see me -- watch me starting working, some things, writings, praying or using my laptops. So they start doing these things. And then they started the vibration while I'm doing these things. Later on I turn back the laptop and I went to sleep at maybe around 11, 11:15, but they didn't -- they wait for me until I go to sleep, 30 minutes, 40 minutes, as always they did, and then they started the vibrations. It goes on and off, on and off, on and off. I tried to sleep. I was completely tired. So I couldn't sleep. And then around 1:00 in the morning I called the intercom to stop the things. The guys responded to me in intercom that they are aware of the judge orders, they are not doing vibration or banging or noises in my cell. That's it. But even after that, they didn't stop it. It continued till maybe 5:00 o'clock in the morning. So that was last night.

Q. Did it stop at 5:00?

A. I woke up anyways, so I have to woke up.

Q. Now, you mention that you called on the intercom. What do you mean by that?

A. The intercom is a small device that the communicate -- we can communicate with the guard in the control room if we need a guard to bring us water or toilet paper or we want to go to rec or we need something from the guard. We use the intercom. We have two intercoms inside our cells, one inside the cells itself and then one inside the backyard, the "Charlie rec" as we call it.

Q. When you complained about the noises last night, did anybody, a guard or anyone else, come to your cell and attempt to find out what the noises were caused by?

A. No.

LDC [MR. HARRINGTON]: Judge, we have filed 152 (RBS Sup) in August of 2015 which is part of the record. I just want to have him adopt the allegations that are in -- the facts that are in here. Do you want to have this marked as a separate exhibit to do this?

MJ [COL POHL]: Do you want to just ask him the questions?

LDC [MR. HARRINGTON]: I am going to ask him to adopt them. I am going to show it to him. There's a long, long, long list. He can see it and attest to that.

MJ [COL POHL]: All right. Just show it to him, that's fine. Yes, you may.

Questions by the Learned Defense Counsel [MR. HARRINGTON]:

Q. Mr. Binalshibh, have you had a chance to look at AE 152 (RBS Sup)?

A. Yes.

Q. And listed on there are a number of allegations of use of noises or sounds between January 1 of 2014 and July 22 of 2015; is that right?

A. That's all the times that I was starting to send the letters to the JTF or the camp commanders. That's not everything, sir.

Q. But the period in there is from January of 2014 to July of 2015, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And in there are a list of complaints that you made about the use of noises or vibrations against you; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And at the time that these events were occurring, were you notifying me or other members of your defense team about these issues?

A. Yes.

Q. And we prepared that document based upon the information you had provided; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you adopt each of those allegations in there as true?

A. Yes, I think so. Yes. Yes, they are true.

Q. Now, since you've been at Camp VII, have you always been in the same cell or the same tier?

A. No.

Q. And how many times have you moved?

A. Maybe six times. Six times.

Q. And can you tell me, have the noises or vibrations continued, whether -- no matter which cell you were in?

A. Yes, everywhere.

Q. Are there other places where you experience them besides your cell and the Charlie rec?

A. Charlie rec is -- and then the outside rec, the big rec, the joint rec, media, so -- yes, those places.

Q. And the outside rec, that's a place that you go to that's separate from your cell; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. And the media room is something that's separate from your cell; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, can you tell me, was there of a time when you heard bird noises?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. Do you recall when that was?

A. That was first when we arrived to Camp VII, 2006.

Q. And how long did that last?

A. From 2006, I believe, until 2009, '10, or when they start to...

LDC [MR. HARRINGTON]: Judge, could I have another exhibit marked?

MJ [COL POHL]: Sure.

LDC [MR. HARRINGTON]: Judge, I'm not going to show this to Mr. Binalshibh because it really doesn't -- isn't directed to him. But this is a memorandum from Mr. Trivett from back at the time when we were discussing the -- with the court the competency issue. And the exhibit basically says that the government is not going to use the hearing of bird noises as part of their proof when they were attempting to question Mr. Binalshibh's competence. The reason being that there was, in fact, a -- devices or device at the camp that enable the camp to broadcast artificial bird noises.

MJ [COL POHL]: Okay. And that's Exhibit 152 ----


MJ [COL POHL]: ---- RR (RBS). Okay. Go ahead.

Questions by the Learned Defense Counsel [MR. HARRINGTON]:

Q. Mr. Binalshibh, when you testified a few minutes ago, you mentioned that these noises and vibrations happened at particular times to you, during the day; is that right?

A. They have some kind of plan sometimes, especially with the first group of the guard, the Army when they was taking care of the Camp VII in 2006 until 2009, maybe. But after that, things get changed. It is no -- you can hear it every time, anytime, there is no SOP. I mean, first group of the guard they were doing these things in a professional way. Certain times vibrations, certain times noises, certain times quiet, certain times banging outside, but the group after them, the Navy and the Army that we have now, the MP, they get out of the line. They are crazy.

Q. When you say "it was done in a professional way," are you saying that based on your experience before you came to Guantanamo?

A. No. Yes -- that's one thing. But I'm talking now about the things that happen now here in Camp VII ----

Q. Right.

A. ---- because we have Camp VII, three groups of army or people take charge of this camp. The first one was the U.S. Army. And they were doing this, noises, this vibrations, but they have some kind of SOP. If you follow them, every time you observe how they are doing these things, you know when going to start; when it going to stop; when it going to start the vibrations; when they going to start the banging; the other different noises from observations. You got that kind of experience. And you know that they are doing these things with plan, with SOPs. After that when the Navy came especially in 2010, they get out of the line, they do it -- they did it in crazy ways. And they just -- they don't have that kind of professional abuse as I can call it, and the same things with the MP now.

Q. And when these -- do these things happen to you during the day when you are doing specific things? Are they more likely to happen?

A. Yes. As you know, we have camera inside our cells and we have people watching our -- watching us very closely. And they are watching us, eyes on us every movement we are doing in the cell. So, you know, when I start to go to sleep, they know when I go to pray. They know when I go to use, for instance, restroom or shower, or taking my lunch or dinner, or starting to write letters, or reading, or right now using laptop. Everything I'm doing there, they are following me, though. So if I start now -- let's say now the vibration is off, there's no vibrations, I'm sitting there talking with brothers or taking my food and then I decided to write letters to you or to use laptop, once I start those things, they start the vibration. And that way that you cannot concentrate, make you very distracted, very annoying. And you get mad and upset and you have to call somebody to talk with them. So that's how they do it, it's more than that, but just as an example for you.

Q. Right. Describe for the judge the vibrations that you hear now. What do you mean by "vibrations"?

A. Vibration has different types of thing. Vibrations now that they are using, I have to explain to you how they use it in our camps, because construction of the Camp VII now that we have ----

[The security classification button was pushed in the courtroom which caused the video feed to terminate at 1012, 24 February 2016.]

[The Military Commission resumed at 1014, 24 February 2016.]

MJ [COL POHL]: Just to make it clear that the interruption of the audio feed was done by the court and not by anybody else. And obviously I don't want to get into specifics of why it was done in open session because that would defeat the purpose of it. But, Mr. Binalshibh, I want to go back to what I just told you. Just describe your cell. Don't describe the outside of it. Do you understand?

ACC [MR. BINALSHIBH]: Yes. Even now?

MJ [COL POHL]: Yes, even now. I only want you to focus on your cell and the vibrations in your cell don't go into a description of the external part of Camp VII. Do you understand that?


MJ [COL POHL]: Okay.

ACC [MR. BINALSHIBH]: My cell, like the other cells at Camp VII?

MTC [MR. TRIVETT]: Sir, are we back in open session immediately?



MJ [COL POHL]: I notice the gallery was cleared. The gallery can be told to come back.

MTC [MR. TRIVETT]: Can we have a two-minute recess for that, sir?


MTC [MR. TRIVETT]: Thank you.

MJ [COL POHL]: Go ahead, Mr. Harrington.

Questions by the Learned Defense Counsel [MR. HARRINGTON]:

Q. Mr. Binalshibh, we need you to describe what the vibrations are like in your cell in this time period.

A. Okay. So the vibrations feelings is -- I'm going to give you a very close example. It's not exact example, but something just so you and others can understand it. It's like sitting in the car while the car is -- the engine -- the engine machine is on. You feel this kind of vibrations, but the car is very, very nice movement or vibration in it. The one that you are sitting on, the spot where you sit on, it is very annoying, very destructive, and very -- make you mad and cannot concentrate at all -- at all. The vibrations -- this is -- if they just do it in very low level, it's bad. If they put it up, you can get -- or go crazy. And this is different from the other places that they have during these things here because the vibration in other places is far away from what we have here because we have this concrete building.

Q. Where on your body do you feel the vibration?

A. If I'm sitting, it is on the spot where -- my sitting spot, exactly there. They started it there. And then if I'm lying down, I'm sleeping, they keep moving it from my -- say from my stomach or legs back and forth, to my feet, and goes on and off. And the bad way, if they are -- they can do it other -- if they -- if the guard is crazy in the courtroom control room, they can turn it on for the whole night as some female guards are doing. But if they are -- and this is based on my experience with this. If they are following the SOP or they're following what they've been told, they are going to turn it on and off and they're going to do it in -- like I said before, in a very professional abuse way.

Q. Now, you described a few minutes ago what happened last night and how you complained about it. Do you complain every time this happens?

A. Almost every night, every night and day.

Q. And do you complain through the intercom system?

A. Yes. Sometimes like if it's too late, like today, morning, at 1:00 in the morning and I don't have time to call the WC and come to my tier, the watch commander I see -- I just call the intercom to see if they're going stop it or not.

Q. And during the day do you use a different way of complaining?

A. During the day -- for right now, because we have this -- the commission laptops that we have, so every time that I request my laptop, the watch commanders came and delivered laptops to me. When he comes to my door, I ask him can you please tell the control room and make them stop this vibration and follow the judge orders. I tell him that every time. Every time he pick up the laptop from me, every time he deliver the laptop to me. This is the only way that I can address it in face to face. Because the watch commander, actually he is the camp commander for the day and night actions there, the camp commander's not every time at the camp. So I -- yes, I told them either verbally or I send them letters.

Q. Do you complain to anybody else besides through the intercom and the watch commander?

A. Sometimes to some guards.

Q. Now, this is going on -- has been going on for a long, long time, correct? When you make these complaints, has there ever been a time when somebody has come into your cell and tried to check and see if there was a vibration or noises?

A. No.

Q. Have they ever asked you to leave your cell so they could go in and check?

A. No.

Q. Are you aware of them bringing any experts in, electricians or anybody else to check on it?

A. No.

Q. And what is the response that you get when you complain?

A. The response is different from one to others. We have four watch commanders -- we -- two for day shift and two for night shift. And every watch commander, as I told you, just see -- as he is the camp commander and this is his backyard. And he has different rules. It's up to him if he wants to stop it, if he wants to increase it, if he wants to make it worse, all these things about -- tell the camp commander -- tell the watch commander and his group, theguards that he is working with. So some of them, they are very strict with me. Theysaid -- I call them, since this judge order has been issued in November 2, 2015. I called one of the watch commander -- I don't have his number, they should have this pseudonym -- but the camp commander prevent them to give it to us so I am going to call him the black one, the black guy. So before he comes, I mention to him -- I mention tothe camp commander about the judge orders and I told him, you know that the judge issued an order to stop this whole thing, and he said "yes." I told him, "Do you have it?" He said, "Yes." And he went back and he bring it -- the guard, and he posted at my door. Later on, the night shift, the black watch commander comes to me to deliver the laptops. And I told him, "Are you aware of the judge orders?" He said, "No." I told him, "Did you read it?" He said, "No." I said, "Why?" He said, "I don't have time to read it." I said to him -- told him just this one page, not longer stuff to read. He said, "When I have time to read it again, I'll read it." I said, "It's posted on my door. Just read it." He said, "No, I don't have time for that now." I told him, "You need to follow the judge orders and stop this vibration, the noises, and don't bother me." He left without saying anything more than that. But later on and before that he was saying we have our camp commander, we are following the SOPs. Every time I mentioned the judge orders, we are following our boss, the camp commander orders. I don't care about what you're telling me about. I told him, "Look, you're talking about judge orders and I cannot tell my lawyers, I'm going to bring this stuff up to the, Judge, the commission." He said, "I don't care." Whatever, what he wants.

Q. Do you remember when that conversation took place in relation to the judge's order?

A. I told you, it is almost every day and I remember I gave you all these incidents, you have them in your record.

Q. But that particular conversation that you talked about with the judge's order, was that right after the judge had issued his order?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, when you complain about these orders, what manner do you do it in?

A. Talking with people, or sending letters.

Q. And do you ever yell at people?

A. Yes, sometimes. Many times.

Q. And what causes you to yell at people?

A. I told you, this drive you crazy, make you up for 24 hours. You cannot sleep, you cannot read, you cannot pray, you cannot do anything. And they follow you everywhere you go, in rec, in your cell, in Charlie, in media, and they keep on doing these things. How do you want me to act? So this is very -- it's very bad. It's very bad. But before I get mad, I call -- as I told you, I call people, I talk with them nicely, I ask them to just stop it. I told them I am not asking you for privilege stuff, I'm just asking you to stop these abuses. That's all I'm asking you, and I ask you just to follow the judge orders. That's all. And one time, two times, three times, nobody listening, day or night shift. Then I go to sleep and they didn't let me sleep. So that's what made me so upset.

Q. Have there been times when these noises have stopped?

A. Not actually, no. Not -- very, very rare time, but it is not -- it is not -- it is always there.

Q. When -- last week when we were in court, there was a day that you did not come to court. Do you remember that?

A. Yes.

Q. And did the noises have something to do with you not coming?

A. Yes, the night abuse vibration, actually.

Q. All right. And the following night, did something happen where there were no noises?

A. Yes, I think the next night was very quiet, very quiet, because I made some problems with the guards the night

Q. And you slept through the whole night that night; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And is that the first time in a long time that you have had a night like that?

A. Yes, it's been a long time.

Q. You mentioned that Judge Pohl's order from November 2 is on the wall outside of your cell; is that right?

A. On the door of my cell.

Q. All right. And has that been up there since the judge made the order?

A. He issued it on November 2. I think, in the morning, afternoon or by noontime, they posted on my door, but when I asked for it ----

Q. And since Judge Pohl made his order, have things gotten better, worse, or stayed the same?

A. Same and worse.

Q. Same and worse?

A. Yes.

Q. What do you mean by "worse"?

A. Same and bad, I mean. It means -- yesterday night and the night before and two night before I called the guard, for instance, to stop it, stop bothering me and let me sleep, I have commission tomorrow. I told them that. I went back to sleep, they started to increase the banging and -- on the fence, three, four, five times, in crazy way, and then they start -- they keep the vibration on for a while until they maybe turn it off, maybe just before the noontime, daytime.

Q. Now, for this period of time that you're talking about, have there been any guards or watch commanders, assistant watch commanders, Tier SUP or anybody, that have been helpful to you?

A. Very -- yes, but very little. Some of them.

Q. Anybody that you can identify?

A. For instance, the last group that just left the camp at -- on August, last year, before this new group came, we have two of them. One watch commander assistant, a female, she was giving testimony here last hearing in October. And I would call her and tell her, "Look, you need to make this stop," and she helped me. She said, "Okay. I'm going to take care of it." She goes, things go better. Many times if I know that she is on the shift, I call her back, and back and forth, and she helped with that. So some people, they take care of that. And then there is another Tier SUP. The Tier SUP is the supervisor of the guards who acted with us. She is also a female, and I notice that every time I tell her to talk with the guards and the court ordered them to stop it, they stop it. Not they stop it, they keep it down, keep it down for a while.

Q. And when did you talk to her?

A. The A-Dub or the Tier SUP.

Q. Tier SUP first?

A. She -- every time she is on shift.

Q. All right. What about the AWC?

A. She is gone, working with the escort now. She is the one carrying the laptops.

Q. That is Officer Jinx?

A. Jinx they called it, whatever.

Q. Now, can you tell me, has -- what you've experienced with how you describe these noises and sounds, has that interfered with or affected your ability to work with me and other members of your defense team?

A. Yes, a lot.

Q. In what ways?

A. In many ways. In -- you know, that you send me almost every day legal mail that I have to go through them and to respond to them and to read them, and to review all my documents to see what's going on. So when they start these noises and the vibrations, I cannot do anything. I send you letters. You see my handwriting, sometimes goes up and down because of the vibrations, and I want to just get rid of this letter, to send it to you, and to make them at least -- not stop the vibrations; they are not going to stop it, but just to at least keep it down. Because once they see me, watch me starting writing something, as I told you, they go crazy. I cannot sometimes concentrate in the meetings, legal meetings because always we meet together, since I know you, and I know my teams, I keep complaining about these things which make this topic is always on the top, affect me a lot. And they didn't give me a chance to talk about other issues that I have in front of me, especially this death penalty cases, so I cannot just talk about it. And other things besides this abuse that is going on for a while now, from 2004 to now.

Q. In the meetings that we have, we spend a lot of time talking about this, do we not?

A. Yes.

Q. And you have problems of being exhausted?

A. Yes, always.

Q. And does it cause you to be irritable?

A. Yes.

Q. You mention that you have difficulty concentrating; is that right?

A. Most of the time, yes. Yes.

Q. And that happens also when we meet together, you and the other members of our team, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Have there been times where you have not come to attorney meetings because of these problems?

A. Yes.

Q. That's even though your team has come all the way from Washington down here, sometimes you cancel the meetings because of your distress; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. In the Exhibit AE 152 (RBS Sup) which had the long list, you mention in there a number of dates, do you not, where you have canceled attorney-client meetings because of this problem?

A. Which page is that?

Q. It would be under 3.a, 41 and 42?

A. I see it, yes.

Q. And 3.b, 12, 15, 21, 14, and 36, right?

A. Yes. Which number again?

Q. I'm sorry. Under 3.b, which follows after 3.a, 12 ----

A. I'm not following. So you told me 41 and 42, and then ----

LDC [MR. HARRINGTON]: May I approach?

MJ [COL POHL]: Yes, you may.

A. Yes, I got it.

Questions by the Learned Defense Counsel [MR. HARRINGTON]:

Q. And 15, 21, 24, and 36, same entries, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. All for different dates, right?

A. Different dates.

Q. And can you tell us before we come for court hearings, right, does this condition get worse, stay the same, or get better?

A. Actually I notice that if I have legal meetings or if I have commissions, it got -- it gets worse. So that make me believe that they are trying to interfere in this legal issues, especially like last night. They know that I have testimony today. They know that. And they know that I have commission. And despite all these things, they keep doing it that way. And, I mean, they don't care. They don't care anyways, yes.

Q. And has that caused you difficulty in being able to discuss with us the various motions and other things that are coming up in court?

A. Yes.

Q. You and I discussed that -- in the motion 152LL, that there was a date in there that said that a meeting was -- you canceled a meeting on November 17, and we reviewed that, did we not, and it was really November -- I'm sorry, October 18; is that right? Do you remember that?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you recall back when we had the October hearings that went from October 19 through October 30, that there were two days when the court did not have session, October 21, and October 27, and did you refuse to come to attorney meetings then because of the problems you were having?

A. Yes, I remember so. I think so, yes.

Q. And last week before the hearings started, you knew that Major Wichner and I and your translator were coming on December 5 to see you; is that right ----

A. Yes.

Q. ---- to prepare for these two weeks of hearings; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And you canceled that meeting, too, did you not?

A. I did.

Q. Was that because of this problem?

A. I did, yes.

Q. Now, besides the watch commander that you described who talked about the judge's order, have other guard force persons made comments to you about the judge's order?

A. Yes, I think every watch commander make their comments because, as I told you, I have to deal with them every day. So one of them say, that you have in your record, that -- he said the guard are not doing anything wrong, they are following the SOP, they are following the orders. And other ones he said this camp is beyond the judge -- above and beyond the judge's orders. Some of them say -- I told them, "Look, I'm going to bring this stuff to the judge. I'm going to bring people to the courtroom." He said, "Nobody can prove it." They don't care. They said, "Do whatever you wants." I think that's the thing that applied, that he replied to me when they talked with me face-to-face. Until the Tuesday before the hearings when they change this whole system.

When I talk with them face to face, when they came to my cell or to media or to the tier, they tell me these things. And I wrote letters to the judge, since January 1, 2016 until the week before the hearings started I started to send a letter to commissions saying that watch commander so-and-so, I talked with him today, I told him to follow the judge orders. He refused. So-and-so refused. And this time and this date, with all these facts and details. I don't know if you saw it. Then on Tuesday before the hearings, they start to tell the guard to respond through the intercom to me when I told them to stop the vibration and to follow the judge orders, they start to tell them to reply some statement. When I told them that, they keep saying, "We are aware of the judge orders, nobody is shaking or vibrating or making noises or banging in your cell." So why they do these things, because it is on the record. The off-record things that -- when I talked with them, nobody care about it. They didn't put it in the paper, they say whatever they want. But if they want to record it, my request or my talk with them and what they answer to me, they start to say these things, show the judge or the people that they are following the judge orders when they are not.

Q. And you mentioned that you have sent letters to the judge; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. How did you -- who did you hand those letters to?

A. I hand it to the guard, sometimes the watch commander if he came to me.

Q. You don't have any idea whether the judge got those letters, do you?

A. I don't know.

Q. And why did you send the judge letters?

A. Because this is his order. I have to tell him that nobody is following his orders.

Q. Now, you're aware, are you not, that when they -- the prosecution asked for a hearing about your competence, they
made a claim that what you have testified today is a delusion in your mind, you know that; is that right?

A. Yes, I see it. Yes.

Q. And have you seen any psychiatrists or any psychologists while you've been at Camp VII?

A. They -- I saw some of them, not under my request. They want to see me, but I don't want to see them. I saw a few of them. Mostly three, I think, first three psychiatrists at Camp VII. And then one of them later and then one recently two years ago, maybe.

Q. Did you ask to see any of them?

A. No.

Q. And the first psychiatrist, when you got here, were you given heavy medication?

A. The first psychiatrist, she was female, she was Navy, she was very bad. She, for instance, when we complain about the bird sounds outside the rec, this bird is for everybody, everybody can hear it when they go to rec. So when we complain about it, they say this is nature, this is bird, we cannot do anything to it. It wasn't just me who was complaining about these things. Almost everybody, and you can talk with brothers, if you want, what they are doing -- they were doing at times, they sent you thepsychiatrist to talk with you. I said, "Why send me her?" I'm talking about the birds that they have four speakers on the both sides in the rec that they play the sounds from it.

This is not a medical issue. Have you to turn it off, that's it, why send me the psychiatrist. And she comes and she ask me crazy questions about crazy things in her mind, not in my mind. And if you don't respond to her as she wants me to respond to her, she said he -- he was uncooperative, he is not -- he has poor judgment, he cannot decide, he cannot so-and-so, he's sick, he has so-and-so. Just -- she make this allegation without any proofs. That was the first one.

And as I told you before, when I came to Camp VII, 2006, and I see this ongoing abuse is still there, from the black site to this site, I said, okay, this is not going to stop at all. That was because of the interrogations because they are not happy with what I'm saying, because whatever they believe. But now why they keep doing these things or the reason behind it, there's no reason. They have to stop it. Besides the noises and the banging and the stuff they were manipulating the temperature in our cell. At that time we have only T-shirt on us, one blanket and our cell goes very cold, very cold that make you just shaking. So I told them many times, at that time to stop these things, and they never stopped it. And instead of that, they bring me the psychiatrist. She was the first one. And then she said because if you -- of your behavior, we have to give you injection that make me completely dead in my bed. I cannot do anything for months. Every 30 days she comes without reasons and they give me injection and another injection, another injection. They killed me. The worst time in my life was at that moment when they gave me injection, more worse than black site. Black site was abuse, was physical abuse, was torture. Okay. But this one, the injection without any reasons, that was the worst things that I have ever went through. I couldn't even feed myself by myself. I cannot eat because of this -- this injection. I shake like this. I put the food in front of my mouth and then I drop it. I couldn't -- I was on the bed for 24 hours doing nothing. Even the prayer, I just pray so quick and fall down. Sleeves come out 24 hours. I have to have the towel to clean myself. I think she is war criminal. She must be in the courtroom, in the jail now even though she is leaving now. She was the first person that I have met and I don't think she is a doctor, she's a monster. She administers all these things and keep lying on media and talking there and saw her on some interviews. And this doctor, based on what she did, all doctors came after her, all psychiatrists came after her, they just copy and paste what she said without even knowing me or interviewing me or seeing me. I refused them, but -- if you see them, it's very funny to see my medical record. In my medical record -- I come here in 2006, September 6. The first -- my -- in the first paper in my medical record ----

MJ [COL POHL]: Mr. Binalshibh, I'm going to ask you to stop for a second because it's important that -- the way this works is you have to work a question and answer back and forth. I know you think this -- so let Mr. Harrington ask you questions and he can kind of direct you the way the answer has got to be because we permit any witness, not just you, just to go off without a question before you, okay? So if he wants to follow up on that he can, but we have got to use a question and answer format.

ACC [MR. BINALSHIBH]: I'm answering his questions. Go ahead.

MJ [COL POHL]: Mr. Harrington.

Questions by the Learned Defense Counsel [MR. HARRINGTON]:

Q. You mentioned this psychiatrist, you complained about the bird sounds; is that right?

A. That's one example.

Q. Did she say that they were just regular birds, or how did she respond?

A. They have different response. First they say there is no birds. Why? Because we are in the rec. Every time the guard came out, they move us outside to the rec, everything's off. Once the guard leaves the rec, nobody in the rec except me or me and brothers, they turn it on. We wait for the camera to send the guard back. They came in. Before they get into the rec we heard them talking on the radio and then prepared to stop the noises. They came out to talk with us. When we talk with them, said there is some noises there, birds, said there's nothing there. Like you look like crazy. That's one way they do it.

Q. But did the psychiatrist say that to you, too?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, as a result of your experience with her, have you met with any other psychologist or psychiatrists?

A. The two after her that they -- I met with them because they forced -- they came to my cell and forced cell extractions and take me medical room. They met with me and talked with me, but I didn't request to talk with them at all because I didn't have issue.

Q. Is there a psychiatrist there now?

A. For right now, yes.

Q. Do you know him?

A. Yes, they said the one who was here in 2014, Dr. Homer.

Q. And you met with him, did you not?

A. Not now. I met with him back in 2014.

Q. Back in 2014 before he left, right?

A. Yes, in June 2014.

Q. How long a period did you meet with him?

A. It was very short time, because it was at the last days of his service at the camp.

Q. And did he tell you things about how long he had been trying to meet with you?

A. Yes, because the meetings occurred while I'm -- while I was in the medical room, the treatment room, with the other doctor, the senior medical officers, and then he showed up, Dr. Homer. And he told me finally after nine months I try to meet with you. Finally you want -- finally I could see you, though.

Q. And at the present time you're not seeing any psychologist or psychiatrist, correct?

A. No.

Q. Are you taking any kind of medication other than for medical problems?

A. No.

Q. How long has it been since you've taken medication for anything emotional or psychiatric?

A. They forced me to do it before the first commission started in 2008. And first time I start to have my military counsels was at that time Susan Lachelier, they stopped it, they stopped the injection and they stopped these whole things, but they kept giving me these pills to take it.

Q. This what?

A. Pill.

Q. Pills?

A. Yes, and then I stopped also.

Q. So how long has it been since you had any kind of that medication?

A. That was in end of 2007, maybe -- just months before the 2008 commissions started.

Q. Now, is there a program at the camp called a DSMP?

A. Yes.

Q. And what is that for?

A. DSMP is kind of meetings with some -- we find out that they are psychology doctors and they claim this is for social activities and just talk with people, know each other, watching movie or playing game or such things.

Q. Did you ever go to that program?

A. Not at the beginning. It started maybe 2007. I didn't participate it in DSMP until 2012, maybe, or end of 2011.

Q. Do you still go?

A. No.

Q. When did you stop?

A. I stopped it in 2015, maybe the first -- first months of 2015 or the middle of 2015 or 2014. I don't remember, but they stopped it completely. There is no DSMP program.

Q. Okay. Was that meant to try and give medical or psychiatric help to people?

A. Everybody works there together, they -- we know that they make reports, they read your mind, they want to know how you're acting, how you're developing, and in your thinking. And they ask you sometime questions about the news, about legal meetings, about this and that to see what you going to answer to them. They are studying you, though.

Q. Now, within the camp itself do you lead prayers?

A. Right now, yes.

Q. Okay. And what significance does that have that you lead prayers?

A. As you know, we are a couple of brothers, someone have to lead people for the prayer. I -- you have to know first the rules of the prayer, the rules of the Imam, the leader of the prayer, and you have to be in full awareness, know what you are doing, know what you are reciting, know how to pray because it's not just affecting you, it's affecting you and the followers.

Q. Have you memorized the Quran?

A. Yes.

Q. And when you're made the leader of the prayer, is that a sign of respect to you?

A. I cannot say -- we are all brothers together, but this is the kind of circumstances where I became prayer leader.

Q. And do you read and study things in this case and other things about what's going on in the world?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And do you discuss that with your brothers?

A. We discuss what we -- what we are watching, for instance, for the news outside the camp and what we are studying for Islamic books that we have -- Islamic lectures, Islamic teachings among the brothers, yes.

Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned before some of the frustration that you felt as a result of this. Have you done things inside your cell over a period of time to the cameras or to anything else?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. What have you done?

A. Back in 2007 I damaged cameras, many, because of this. From 2007 until 2010, maybe, I was doing these things. It depends if the things go worse and nobody's listening, the last resort is -- the last solution for me is to damage the camera.

Q. Do you still do that now?

A. No.

Q. Now, you mentioned early in your testimony about some of the effects that these noises and vibrations and the other things that were done to you had on you personally ----

A. Yes.

Q. ---- before you came to Guantanamo. Do you remember testifying to that?

A. Say that again. I am not following.

Q. You testified early in your testimony about the effects of the things that were done to you ----

A. Okay.

Q. ---- before you came to Guantanamo.

A. Yes.

Q. All right. Since you've been at Guantanamo, when you hear these noises and vibrations, does that bring back the feelings that you had before you came to Guantanamo?

A. Same feelings, yes.

Q. Does that make it very hard for you to deal with that?

A. It is very hard to deal with it and say -- just bring me the question why.

Q. Why?

A. Yes. Are you asking or am I asking?

Q. I'm asking why.

A. Okay. Good. There is many reasons that I notice that they are doing these things from the time I was at the black site until now. They tried to -- I'm going to make it so very -- I'm going to summarize the things. They tried to make me ----

Q. That will make the judge happy.

A. Okay. Good. They tried to make me work with them which I refused many, in many -- in many times, in black site or here. At the Camp VII. And they tried to offer me something, just make me work with them, like they did in other places; safety, good life, good future, just work with us. For them I was -- before somebody else being captured, I was something special. So anyway, they tried these things until now, as I mentioned the psychiatrist, the first one, she told me because you are not helpful for our people. I understand language because I understand this kind of language from the black site, because I don't know her, there's nothing going on between me and her or any other staff at Camp VII that make her say, "You are not helpful." And then she said this is your life, you have to adjust your life, adjust yourself with it. Yes, they tried to turn me against my brothers. That's all.

LDC [MR. HARRINGTON]: That's all I have right now, Judge.

MJ [COL POHL]: Trial Counsel, do you have any questions for Mr. Binalshibh?

MTC [MR. TRIVETT]: Sir, can we get a health and comfort break?

MJ [COL POHL]: Do you have questions for him?

MTC [MR. TRIVETT]: Yes, sir.

MJ [COL POHL]: Then we will recess for 15 minutes.

Commission is in recess. [The R.M.C. 803 session recessed at 1054, 24 February 2016.]

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